The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by boko

I think you reading too deep and missed the whole point of my post in the 1st part. It was a caricatural and hypothetical exaggerated context to elaborate a point.

Edit : Elaborated a bit

It was a caricaturist answer to the exaggerated scenario.

It is like when in this thread we talk about a god mode, creating an exaggeration, and then to trying to point that PvE-only skills and consumables are the same.


A guy in my alliance, very annoying one, comes on and start chatting. Nobody answers to him. So he says people don't talk anymore, don't play together, that he miss the old days of no heroes when people play together.

He does that pretty much every time.

The curious thing is most of the time I'm in a team with like 3-5 other people and chatting on teamspeak. Also, when we invite people on the alliance chat to do something like a dungeon, a vanquish, fow, etc, he never wants to come. He just ask for help to do missions or early quests.

My point is, exaggerations and analogies can be useful, but only to a certain extent. They aren't the exact same thing. If we read to much into them we can pretty much say whatever we want, spinning it the way it serves us better, but get further and further from the reality in question.

So yes, while nine rings isn't a good way to play gw, nothing would say that those people would be playing the game at that time. They might be sleeping, they might be spending time with friends in real life, or they might be chatting with people while standing there.

Nine rings isn't exactly the cause of the GW problems. Neither are PvE-only skills or consumables. Nor is PvE the cause for the PvP problems.

A year ago, I bet a large number of people was saying Ursan blessing was the main problem of GW PvE. While UB was stupid, its removal don't seem to have improved GW situation.

Anet can remove PvE-only skills. Anet can remove consumables. Anet can even remove titles and heroes.

In a year time, the few that are left, will keep saying GW is dead, people don't PuG, PvP is stale without the infusion of new blood, cursing the "community" and so on.

And all we have accomplished is reducing options, narrowing the game to a very ways of play it.

All I see in threads like these, even if it wasn't the OP intention and if this thread escaped his control and went beyond his objective, is "reducing".

What, in my point of view, people should be demanding is that skills that were changed because of PvP concerns were reverted for PvE play, that "normal" 8 team play style is as profitable as farming, that monsters get better builds, especially as a team and so on.

I want more. More options. Overwhelm us with options. Take away the need for speed (I don't care about it but some people do and seem affected if other people achieve their objectives in much less time, even if in a less fun and enjoyable, to themselves, way).

After that, if anything is still blatantly overpowered, take care of it.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

It was a caricaturist answer to the exaggerated scenario.

It is like when in this thread we talk about a god mode, creating an exaggeration, and then to trying to point that PvE-only skills and consumables are the same.

That's not what we're saying (at least not what I'm saying...)

We're pointing out that the same argument allowing for the usage of overpowered tools (what's commonly referred to as the "don't like;don't use" argument) can be used for any single silly/inconsistent/overpowered facet you can think of. It doesn't matter if you use the newly introduced Hello Kitty set of in-game armor, it's existence is concerning enough.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What, in my point of view, people should be demanding is that skills that were changed because of PvP concerns were reverted for PvE play, that "normal" 8 team play style is as profitable as farming, that monsters get better builds, especially as a team and so on.

I want more. More options. Overwhelm us with options. Take away the need for speed (I don't care about it but some people do and seem affected if other people achieve their objectives in much less time, even if in a less fun and enjoyable, to themselves, way).

After that, if anything is still blatantly overpowered, take care of it.

Balancing the overpowered facets is the first step of many. A few underpowered skills against a few balanced skills is different vs. a underpowered, balanced, and overpowered skills/tools.

When you have the former you have a more limited selection of options for your choosing, but you're going through the areas in a much less imbalanced fashion. Having a few overpowered also limits your options but causes the game to be more mindless.

That's why nerfing UB didn't solve all the problems, people tend to become jaded with a certain core issue. Balancing it was only a first sequence of a larger order of events.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by improvavel

If we read to much into them we can pretty much say whatever we want, spinning it the way it serves us better, but get further and further from the reality in question.

All I see in threads like these, even if it wasn't the OP intention and if this thread escaped his control and went beyond his objective, is "reducing".

you should take your own advice. imbalanced skills cause reduction. the problem with your viewpoint is that you think there is no such thing as "too powerful." powerful imba skills are just as bad for the game as useless weak skills. they only give you the illusion of choice, but really you only picked it because it was powerful imba. wouldn't it be great if instead of 10 viable builds, we had 100 viable builds to choose from? this is what balance does--increase options, whether buff or nerf.


regarding soloing vs grouping:
sure, if you remove the ability to solo farm rewards, people might leave. but the people that are leaving are those that only care about rewards and playing by themselves. so what is the community left with? people who care bout the game and playing it with others. doesn't sound like such a bad place to me.

to clarify: the game facilitates solo play to the point that people who have to make a choice between the two will more likely choose solo play rather than multiplayer. so its not that all the people that enjoy both but currently play solo will leave, but rather they will choose to do multiplayer instead.


edit: i'm not saying that solo play should be removed completely either. i enjoy solo play once in a while. we should keep solo missions, solo quests, solo dungeons, etc. however, the fact that nearly every single area is solo-able, including so-called "multiplayer" areas, is not good for the game.

[Fril Estelin]

I've got a somewhat funny question to all of you (it's not an innocent question); you say "the game" does this and that, or this is good or bad for "the game". Who is this "game" you talk about that can do stuff or to which absolute properties can be attached? What is this notion that exists by itself, that is apparently understood and used and used by you, but not others?

(no, this is not a question about English or your master of it, everyone makes mistakes, including me, this is about what you really mean behind this word...)

EDIT: GW's god mode?

[snaek]

is that some sort of "guns don't kill, people do" question?

you build a single player game, people will likely play it as single player.
you build a door, people will likely open it.
you build a killing machine, people will likely kill with it.

sure, you can argue that the current gw is what they want the game to be now, but thats not what it was originally claimed (or intended) to be, and not what it originally was at first either--and that upsets some of the original fans.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Balancing the overpowered facets is the first step of many. A few underpowered skills against a few balanced skills is different vs. a underpowered, balanced, and overpowered skills/tools.

When you have the former you have a more limited selection of options for your choosing, but you're going through the areas in a much less imbalanced fashion. Having a few overpowered also limits your options but causes the game to be more mindless.

Thing is that in GW you can only choose a minimum of skills. That means skills are competing between themselves.

You and I both agree with that.

So, when you have skills that do the same thing, some will just never be used.

Look for example at [[resurrect]. It is just a bad skill that lose to pretty much every other rez available, except you get it for free and opposed to [[Resurrection Signet] is reusable without morale boost.


So lets remove consumables.

What happens?

Some builds, mostly farming builds, might disappear. Other will become slower.

55's and 600's are still out there. No problem.

Remove PvE only skills.

Cryway disappears. Imbagon too.

For general game play, including HM, they aren't really needed.

Sabway is still there, so is Discordway.

A portion of the population won't be able to complete regular game though, get pissed and move on.

So what about elite areas?

The original prophecies came with skills like [[Life barrier], [[life bond], [[Defy pain], [[Obsidian flesh], [[Spell breaker].

[[Spiteful spirit], despite being slow still kills. [[Protective Spirit] and [[enfeebling blood] are quite strong. Paras can chain [[Defensive anthem (PvE)]. Wards are still out there.

The main problem will be HM elementalists with the lack of decent +armor party wide skills, but [[maelstrom] and [[earth shaker] are out there too.

If you want nukes you still have [[Feast of Corruption] and [[Ray of judgment].

So congratulations - you have tank-and-spank.

And if this game didn't have a PvP area you wouldn't be bothered.

But since it has, you will still be bothered because in PvP tanking fail and in PvE doesn't, and it will probably be the fastest method in PvE.

[the_jos]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

you say "the game" does this and that, or this is good or bad for "the game". Who is this "game" you talk about that can do stuff or to which absolute properties can be attached? What is this notion that exists by itself, that is apparently understood and used and used by you, but not others?

I'm separating this in two different parts, PvE and PvP.
When talking about 'the game' in PvP it's mainly about the game mechanics and how certain skills interact with it.
In esssence, GW is a resource game. You have limited resources, health and energy. To take health away from opponents you use energy (or adrenaline, but that's a form of build up energy instead of an existing pool). When health is taken away you restore it by converting energy to health.
To achieve this each player has 8 skills and a team has a maximum of 8 players, giving a total of 64 skills on each side.
When health drops to 0 people can restore the energy and skill pool by a so-called resurrection skill, bringing skills and energy back. Or wait for a certain amount of time in some forms of play.

When we are talking about good and bad in PvP perspective, we are in essention talking about the understanding of resource management.
Even spiking is resource management, it's taking 8 skills and an energy pool form the opposing team away.
So when types of play emerge that allow people to play without considering resource management, it's bad for the game. One of the examples was the pre-nerf discord GvG team. It used heroes for quick spikes and heals and abused Soul Reaping for energy management. I'm not familiar enough with the current meta to say anything about it.

When talking about PvE the same mechanics also apply. Again it's a game of resource management. Only the human players know this and the IA doesn't. So they waste all energy on a single heavy protected target while being drained of life by others they are not attacking. That's the essence of tanking. This is an essential difference between PvE and PvP.
Still, resource management is 'the game' in PvE.
There are some other mechanics that are present in PvE and not in PvP, for example a gold/hour rate when farming, which influences certain types of play.

When talking about stuff that is bad for 'the game' we are talking about stuff that takes away the need for resource management.
My first target has always been consumables, because this is the prime example of broken resource management. Next was Ursan, also an example where resource management was not needed anymore, specially when combined with consumables.

After that we get into 'broken mechanics'. Perma-sin and similar builds are bad for the game because they allow for unbalanced teams. A lot of defensive and healing resources are bundled around two players (when a monk is taken to heal up when aggro is lost), allowing six players to use only offensive skills.
What this teaches players is that resource management doesn't really matter, you only need some specific skills to get things done.


An example of resource management.
I've played monk a lot the last half year. Both PvE and PvP. In basic it's converting energy to health. Considering equally skilled teams, whenever I have a hard time keeping up with energy the team isn't either having enough offensive power to kill opponents while being pressured or the team is lacking defense.
Whenever I'm always high on energy the team is having too much defensive power, it could be more powerfull when some energy was converted to offense instead of defense.

I think this is something that forms one of the basics of Guild wars and to which absolute properties can be attached.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Thing is that in GW you can only choose a minimum of skills. That means skills are competing between themselves.

You and I both agree with that.

So, when you have skills that do the same thing, some will just never be used.

Which is why you don't have them do the same thing.

Part of my opinion is that ANet implemented a wee (i.e. far) too many skills to their game, something I feel as a bad effect on both sides of the game. While it may be hard to differentiate them between each other, an effort needs to be made regardless.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So congratulations - you have tank-and-spank.

...What, so we're just leaving it at that?

I've already said, repeatedly (and in fact in that one post you just quoted!) that balancing - not removing, which I realize is a bad idea - PvE skills and consumables is just the first step of many, just like balancing Ursan didn't help as much as people assumed.

So cool, we're down to Tank and Spank. Now we have to fix that, decide what to do what Sabway, feed the monkeys, set fire to places etc. etc.

Balancing PvE skills and consumables isn't going to solve the game, it's just going to help it.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So cool, we're down to Tank and Spank. Now we have to fix that, decide what to do what Sabway, feed the monkeys, set fire to places etc. etc.

Sabway is perfectly fine. A human team will never use sabway or discordway because it isn't good enough. It is just good enough for AI heroes that are as just dumb as the enemy.

Tank and spank requires a few things - complete rework of AI and then change builds of mobs and their levels and bonuses they get from HM and stuff. Unfortunately wont happen.

I know snaek thinks I'm the one keeping Anet from acting (), but sadly I'm not.

Anet won't take that effort because GW can't generate more money.

What do you want now? Another expansion with more dungeons, armors titles? Another campaign with another 2 professions, another noob island and 10 more of the same missions?

Originally Posted by the_jos

When talking about PvE the same mechanics also apply. Again it's a game of resource management. Only the human players know this and the IA doesn't. So they waste all energy on a single heavy protected target while being drained of life by others they are not attacking. That's the essence of tanking. This is an essential difference between PvE and PvP.
Still, resource management is 'the game' in PvE.
There are some other mechanics that are present in PvE and not in PvP, for example a gold/hour rate when farming, which influences certain types of play.

When talking about stuff that is bad for 'the game' we are talking about stuff that takes away the need for resource management.
My first target has always been consumables, because this is the prime example of broken resource management. Next was Ursan, also an example where resource management was not needed anymore, specially when combined with consumables.

After that we get into 'broken mechanics'. Perma-sin and similar builds are bad for the game because they allow for unbalanced teams. A lot of defensive and healing resources are bundled around two players (when a monk is taken to heal up when aggro is lost), allowing six players to use only offensive skills.
What this teaches players is that resource management doesn't really matter, you only need some specific skills to get things done.


An example of resource management.
I've played monk a lot the last half year. Both PvE and PvP. In basic it's converting energy to health. Considering equally skilled teams, whenever I have a hard time keeping up with energy the team isn't either having enough offensive power to kill opponents while being pressured or the team is lacking defense.
Whenever I'm always high on energy the team is having too much defensive power, it could be more powerfull when some energy was converted to offense instead of defense.

I think this is something that forms one of the basics of Guild wars and to which absolute properties can be attached.

The main problem is, that although AI doesn't know what is happening, AI has more resources.

Going toe to toe vs AI in resources battles is quite nice, but when AI just have too many of those is just easier to exploit the fact they are code.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Anet won't take that effort because GW can't generate more money.

If that's what's "preventing" a developer to do certain changes, then they've already lost complete touch with the playerbase.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main problem is, that although AI doesn't know what is happening, AI has more resources.

That's somewhat contradicting, because they don't have the capability to either use/use properly all of those resources.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If that's what's "preventing" a developer to do certain changes, then they've already lost complete touch with the playerbase.

To some. I expect them to lose most of the players that were interested in PvP in GW2 unless they come with 2 nice GW2 games.

That's somewhat contradicting, because they don't have the capability to either use/use properly all of those resources.

On the other hand you can't just make them stop being AI to test how it would be if they could use those.

What we know, is that if you give 300+ damage attacks, with +20 armor and +health, human parties will trash AI parties. Ursan proved that.

If the AI was better programmed and had better builds, I don't see what would stop them to do the same to human parties.


I know you and others just want to make the game more interesting. I want that too. The game can still be interesting and loads of stuff to try and mess about, though, unless someone is just concerned in the utmost efficiency and titles/skins.

But lets be realistic - this mess called GW is beyond repair or it actually needs so much revamp Anet decided they might as well make GW2 instead.

I oppose clearly to any form of PvE competition and ranking between players, but I wouldn't mind smarter enemies with smarter builds.

But at this point messing around will, in my opinion, just cause more harm then good.

What I can tell you though, is that GW2 will be much more of a traditional RPG than GW is. People that play RPGs want to collect stuff, want to see their character grow in power over time.

I can also tell you, that nothing anyone can do will make people more skillful or force them to be more skillful and at this point, big changes in this EoL game, where most people are either PvE veterans grinding stuff, players that just like to do something with friends or newbies that are far from all these imbalanced builds, wont make the game better.

GW during prophecies time wasn't any better, really. People just didn't knew the game at that time. If the game reverted to what prophecies used to be, people would just trash it in no time. The all new sensation just masked the problems.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But lets be realistic - this mess called GW is beyond repair or it actually needs so much revamp Anet decided they might as well make GW2 instead.

I find it humorous that everybody said everything was wonderful until me and Bryant entered this thread. I'm glad we are all on the same page now.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I oppose clearly to any form of PvE competition and ranking between players, but I wouldn't mind smarter enemies with smarter builds.

Titles? More impressive looking gear?

Somebody actually made an interesting post earlier. Wouldn't you be better off with a single player offline version of Guild Wars where you can do whatever you want with no impact on anybody else?

Originally Posted by Improvavel

GW during prophecies time wasn't any better, really. People just didn't knew the game at that time. If the game reverted to what prophecies used to be, people would just trash it in no time. The all new sensation just masked the problems.

No, it was better back then. I explained why pretty well in an earlier post. The game today requires less skill than before to the detriment of the community...there is almost no doubt about it.

[the_jos]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Sabway is perfectly fine. A human team will never use sabway or discordway because it isn't good enough. It is just good enough for AI heroes that are as just dumb as the enemy.

Well, yes and no.
Discordway abuses several game mechanics.
First of all it makes use of the almost unlimited pool of energy necro's have when stuff keeps dropping (friends and foes).
Second, it does what AI does best. Reacting. Put a hex and a condition on a foe and all of a sudden the heroes will cast discord when they are not casting other skills. The same for the healer, it's good for keeping red bars up, not that good for pre-prots. But then, a wall of minions takes most damage, no need to prot those.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The main problem is, that although AI doesn't know what is happening, AI has more resources.

Going toe to toe vs AI in resources battles is quite nice, but when AI just have too many of those is just easier to exploit the fact they are code.

AI might have more resources, but they have several disadvantages.
First of all, it's AI with a fixed programming. They react, they don't act by themselfs. The first time a foe walks forward to pull a group of players into a trap will be hillarious (for example, move forward and shadow step back to the group, causing overextention of the human players).
Second, because of their programming they will use their energy pool till it's empty. Why heal up someone who's not under attack? Natural regen will take care of that.
Third, their groups don't have any balance. Most groups lack a healer and the groups that do have a crap healer. On top of that players will attack the healer first. So to be of any 'challenge' foes have to rely on other things, harder hitting skills, more healing, monster skills, the number of foes and stuff like that.

Still, it remains a resources battle. You make sure foes don't have any way to regain health (kill monk first). You make sure they can't hurt you (daze on overpowered caster bosses or pre-protting for exampe) and after that you make their red bars go down. Whenever you kill a foe that doesn't get up again you disabled some resources.

This is one of the reasons many players have a hard time at dungeons like Slaver's.
Those foes have a res (some hard) with which they bring resources back. Combined with the size of the groups this is what makes them hard to beat for an unorganised team that doesn't rely on abuse of AI (mainly tanking and use of FS).

[fb2000]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

No, it was better back then. I explained why pretty well in an earlier post. The game today requires less skill than before to the detriment of the community...there is almost no doubt about it.

It might be that you've been playing so long you just find it easier? Seriously tho?

Theres only a finite number of valid strategies in any game.. Adding bazillions of skills wont change that fact

PS on a second read, Im not sure whether you mean pve or pvp

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by fb2000

It might be that you've been playing so long you just find it easier? Seriously tho?

This has been discussed to death and I'm almost certain its wrong. There has been a major power creep in the game...everybody should be able to see it.

Originally Posted by fb2000

PS on a second read, Im not sure whether you mean pve or pvp

I am talking about PvE of course (when it comes to skill requirements being lower). PvP has similar problems with the power creep in terms of balance, but that isn't what we are focusing on in this thread.

[glacialphoenix]

This has been discussed to death and I'm almost certain its wrong. There has been a major power creep in the game...everybody should be able to see it.

I have to agree with the power creep thing, especially when you look at the elites. Think about what you see most fire eles running: Savannah Heat. Searing Flames. Mind Blast. They're all Nightfall skills. Once they came out, any fire ele without NF was pretty much at a heavy disadvantage in terms of nuking - and I've seen someone who came into GW late suddenly find Prophecies much easier because of the NF skills - and his ability to kill in Prophecies skyrocketed when he finally got his hands on Nightfall.

And, well. Light of Deliverance had its share of the limelight before it got nerfed, and it was from Nightfall. Healer's Boon, the ever-popular 'foolproof' monk bar of many a PvE PUG group, is also from Nightfall.

I'm not a PvP player, but that's what it seems like to me from a PvE perspective. Speaking for PvE, yes there has been a power creep, and it's very obvious.

Of course, you have to have played for a certain amount of time to realise that, and it's not exactly fair to call a newbie player bad for having to use what you might consider overpowered skills. He never had to make do with less, and there is no reason for him to gimp himself just because older players can pull out the "When I first did THAT mission..." line.

[fb2000]

Ah, sorry I understood you wrong then.

But yeah, pve has been changed (simplified? dunno) a lot. Is this necessarily a bad thing? If the rules of the game change and the players adapt to the new situation, hence making their gameplay style more efficient, how does this lead to a lower "quality" of those players? It might just mean that the quality of the developers went down, but thats that . Subjectively, the players have become generally a bit better imo - I just started playing a bit recently again after a 1 year+ pause and I can say that in my eyes people know what they are doing in the game.
I think the same about PvP, the general level has definitely improved. I cant say of the higher-level PvP, never had much of a taste for things that require much dedication in GW

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

I find it humorous that everybody said everything was wonderful until me and Bryant entered this thread. I'm glad we are all on the same page now.

Indeed. The more widespread all this gets, the better chance we have of actually fixing anything currently in-game.

At this point yeah, we have no clue if ANet will change anything. But that doesn't mean we must ignore all of these insignificant to glaring problems.

Guild Wars PvE is still unique, but went to being very mediocre.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I can also tell you, that nothing anyone can do will make people more skillful or force them to be more skillful and at this point, big changes in this EoL game, where most people are either PvE veterans grinding stuff, players that just like to do something with friends or newbies that are far from all these imbalanced builds, wont make the game better.

I'm confused at how implementing more balance and downgrading those facets that are imbalanced will not make for a better game?

Originally Posted by Improvavel

GW during prophecies time wasn't any better, really...

No PvE skills, no bullshit consumables, no strengthening your character artificially (via titles) through "time".

Yeah, Proph wasn't different at all.

Originally Posted by fb2000

Ah, sorry I understood you wrong then.

But yeah, pve has been changed (simplified? dunno) a lot. Is this necessarily a bad thing? If the rules of the game change and the players adapt to the new situation, hence making their gameplay style more efficient, how does this lead to a lower "quality" of those players? It might just mean that the quality of the developers went down, but thats that . Subjectively, the players have become generally a bit better imo - I just started playing a bit recently again after a 1 year+ pause and I can say that in my eyes people know what they are doing in the game.

If it changes for the worse then yes, it can have a pretty bad effect on the game.

When you lower the skill threshold, the less you have to do to become an efficient player. You're not encouraged to learn a whole lot of depth, and depth is a very happy thing.

Largely, what you have now is not only what could be players becoming better but that we now also have access to more powerful tools.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No PvE skills, no bullshit consumables, no strengthening your character artificially (via titles) through "time".

Yeah, Proph wasn't different at all.

Infinite minions, no soul reaping cap, pets leaving exploitable bodies, watch yourselves, no scatter from AoE ...

Yeah no problems at all...

Originally Posted by the_jos

Well, yes and no.
Discordway abuses several game mechanics.
First of all it makes use of the almost unlimited pool of energy necro's have when stuff keeps dropping (friends and foes).
Second, it does what AI does best. Reacting. Put a hex and a condition on a foe and all of a sudden the heroes will cast discord when they are not casting other skills. The same for the healer, it's good for keeping red bars up, not that good for pre-prots. But then, a wall of minions takes most damage, no need to prot those.

Discordway is a good build for heroes. If you have humans you will never run it.

By that definition anything that works is imbalanced.

Third, their groups don't have any balance. Most groups lack a healer and the groups that do have a crap healer. On top of that players will attack the healer first. So to be of any 'challenge' foes have to rely on other things, harder hitting skills, more healing, monster skills, the number of foes and stuff like that.

Still, it remains a resources battle. You make sure foes don't have any way to regain health (kill monk first). You make sure they can't hurt you (daze on overpowered caster bosses or pre-protting for exampe) and after that you make their red bars go down. Whenever you kill a foe that doesn't get up again you disabled some resources.

This is one of the reasons many players have a hard time at dungeons like Slaver's.
Those foes have a res (some hard) with which they bring resources back. Combined with the size of the groups this is what makes them hard to beat for an unorganised team that doesn't rely on abuse of AI (mainly tanking and use of FS).

No, groups with good builds are hard. Groups with good builds and bigger stats are harder.

They can have bigger stats because they are dumb and you can abuse them.

If there was 2 humans teams, at least semi decent one, fighting each other, one with 8 lvl 20 the other with 8 lvl 28 with hm bonuses, who you think will win?

[Divinity Sword]

lol almost everyone is arguing in this thread, calling people noobs, etc etc... so does the community suck? apparently haha. I think if GW was made into a single player game lots of people would leave just because they wouldn't be able to show off their titles :P.